Curse

striderkaaru · Dec 08, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Everything hangs on this. If 'Accept' is behaving as it should, scamming is going to be minimized. But that is the 64,000 platinum question now isn't it?

If 'Accept' is not being cleared out on a modify, then we have a HUGE security issue! If it is, then I agree that a mouseover before accepting is expected behavior.

But it was my understanding that Accept was NOT being cleared. And that's very bad.

I didn't have time to check the trade screens last night, I got sidetracked by naked necros.

if people really don't believe this, we can do a quick check tonight when i am able to log on. you can buy a piece of iron from me for 1 gold and click "accept." after seeing this, i will try to scam you, modify it, and replace it with 1 wood. i am fairly certain that you need to click "accept" again in order for the trade to go through.

with regards to the scammer quickly switching the item as you were about to click "accept," then he must have been really fast and you didn't pay attention. when a trade is being modified, the trader's item row as well as the "accept" button are greyed out. this is clear visual indication of a modification in progress.

the reason why i am not signing, once again, is that the suggestion offers no real change for the current system. scammers will just keep doing the bait and switch tactic prior to this "locked" screen. either that, or they will do the cancel-reopen trade over and over tactic.

this "locked" screen, as i am understanding it, offers you the chance to look over the items one final time before clicking accept without worrying about a modified trade. isn't that the same as what you would do now? oh, "but the scammer can modify the trade" you say. that would be just like cancelling the "locked" screen and redoing the trade. it's a different way of modifying, but some scammers do try that now.

i'm not saying the suggestion is bad. it's also not very good, because essentially, it changes nothing.

qwe4rty · Dec 08, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I'm pretty sure this is all going to become redundant (spelled "auction house")

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Ahhh yes...let's summarize this whole scenario:

1. Get scammed because you aren't paying attention.
2. Start a campaign spamming this into every thread you can imagine.
3. Deny any personal responsibility.
4. Call anyone who disagrees with you a scammer.

When have I called you a scammer, Damon?

I called xxhell a scammer b/c:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxhell

of course the bait and switch in diablo 2 is what got me to scamming in that game.. i ended up hacking acounts.. bait and switching.. every scam in diablo 2 i knew i made so much *real* money off it.. all because someone scamed me for the first soj i found.. and i wanted it back but realy i got it back times 10k lol..most scammers start scamming because they got scammed its a on going circle
/not signed

This guy admits he's a scammer, then doesn't sign the petition.

If that doesn't make my point, I don't know what will.

I fully admit I hit accept too fast. But, that does not change the fact that with the correct timing, (changing items as they click accept), you can scam anyone. I'm not trying to get my Black Dyes back (although that would be nice). I'm just trying to prevent future people from getting scammed.

Oh, and if telling people about this petition on related threads is a crime, please ban me. I'd rather have a scam debate in one thread, then spread out over several.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

with regards to the scammer quickly switching the item as you were about to click "accept," then he must have been really fast and you didn't pay attention. when a trade is being modified, the trader's item row as well as the "accept" button are greyed out. this is clear visual indication of a modification in progress.

How long does the accept bar stay greyed out? I had no problem hitting accept...

hidden_agenda · Dec 08, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

actually, this issue can be boil down to a classic atomic transaction problem in computer science...

all that is needed is the following:

1. both parties needs to submit offer (update)
2. both parties needs to accept offer (commit)
3. if either party decided to modify offer, it goes back to prior to 1. I.e. both parties have to resubmit their offers and re-accept the offers.

we already have 1 & 2, what we need 3

if you really want to be stringent, a dialog box can even pop up that says your counterpart is modifying his offer, please double-check before re-submitting your offer and accepting it.

at that point, all that really could be done in terms of non-logged transaction handling is done.

jammr_m32 · Dec 08, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

How long does the accept bar stay greyed out? I had no problem hitting accept...

As long as it takes for them to hit modify, make the changes and hit submit offer again. It's not rocket science...if you're making a trade, pay attention to that and only that. If you didn't see the message come up saying the offer was being modified, you weren't paying very close attention.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

actually, this issue can be boil down to a classic atomic transaction problem in computer science...

all that is needed is the following:

1. both parties needs to submit offer (update)
2. both parties needs to accept offer (commit)
3. if either party decided to modify offer, it goes back to prior to 1. I.e. both parties have to resubmit their offers and re-accept the offers.

we already have 1 & 2, what we need 3

if you really want to be stringent, a dialog box can even pop up that says your counterpart is modifying his offer, please double-check before re-submitting your offer and accepting it.

You know, I'm up for this. I'm sure many here will complain about having the "hassle" of resubmitting items if the deal is modified, but that's a small price to pay to help stop scammers.

I like the window warning, too.

For those of you who are saying "Buyer Beware" and "You deserve to be scammed" shame on you!

This game is about having fun, first and foremost. I think the least you can do is have a little extra security in trades to keep scamming down to a minimum.

Crotalus · Dec 08, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

1)Get into good/respectful guild.
2)Never trade to anyone outside the guild.

You can still get scammed from guild members but it is unlikely.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammr_m32

As long as it takes for them to hit modify, make the changes and hit submit offer again. It's not rocket science...if you're making a trade, pay attention to that and only that. If you didn't see the message come up saying the offer was being modified, you weren't paying very close attention.

First time it had happened to me, honestly. I had made many trades prior without incident. I didn't know you could change money that quickly (also, I admit, I hit accept too quickly. Had I waited, this probably wouldn't have happened).

Still, why should everyone have to either read about how to avoid scams or be scammed themselves before they wise up? For many (like me) this is their first Online RPG experience.

I think anything that helps people out to let them know exactly what's going on in a trade is a good thing.

jammr_m32 · Dec 08, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

If there were to be a change, I would like to see something like a separate button to accept trades that had been modified. The accept modified offer would only come up if the offer had actually been modified and the accept button would be greyed out at that point.

The problem is that even if another window was opened, the actions to complete the trade would be the same regardless of whether a trade had been modified or not. You'd go through the same sequence, click the same buttons with a non-modified trade as with a modified trade. If there was a separate button for modified trades, the process for accepting the trade would be different and since it would be out of the norm, people would be more likely to review the deal.

Carinae · Dec 08, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

First time it had happened to me, honestly. I had made many trades prior without incident. I didn't know you could change money that quickly...

Well, how about taking a page out of another spellbook:

How about an trade delay (similar to the after-cast delay) so that high-speed bait-and-switch cannot happen.

The delay would be 1-2 sec from the time the modify screen opened, until the time you could click OK. This would provide enough time for the other party to realize something was happening. Most people wouldn't notice this at all, only scammers.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

How about you create your own trade delay by not hitting accept for 15 seconds or so to make sure they don't do that?

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

How about you create your own trade delay by not hitting accept for 15 seconds or so to make sure they don't do that?

I agree with Damon on this. An automatic delay would just let scammers time their scam, it would not stop the problem.

Damon, if you want people to wait 15 sec before they accept anyway, why not a seperate "Accept Modified Trade" button? That would save you 15 seconds!

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Damon, if you want people to wait 15 sec before they accept anyway, why not a seperate "Accept Modified Trade" button? That would save you 15 seconds!

Because there is no need for it. As I (and others) have said repeatedly - if you trade intelligently you won't get scammed. Caveat Emptor.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

and he isn't agruing against that what he is saying is a dam syteme to stop said scamming would be better than telling everone that got scammed your stupid go screw yourself

...and what I am saying is that the system is fine as it is - all you need to do is pay attention to what you are doing. It's not ANet's responsibility to protect you from yourself...

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

...and what I am saying is that the system is fine as it is - all you need to do is pay attention to what you are doing. It's not ANet's responsibility to protect you from yourself...

No, but Anet could put in some safeguards to stop scammers from exploiting people!

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

no what you are saying is your stupid if you get scammed go screw yourself

If you choose to interpret it as such, that's your perogative. However, I didn't say that nor imply it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

No, but Anet could put in some safeguards to stop scammers from exploiting people!

They are already there. They are sufficient enough to keep what I daresay would be 99% of the people from getting scammed.

Look, I understand that you are pissed off that you cot scammed, and you want to find a way to blame it on someone else. But the system is fine as it is.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

They are already there. They are sufficient enough to keep what I daresay would be 99% of the people from getting scammed.

Look, I understand that you are pissed off that you cot scammed, and you want to find a way to blame it on someone else. But the system is fine as it is.

99%?!? Where did you get THAT number? I guarantee more than 1% of Guild Wars has been scammed....

You know, Damon, we can go back and forth on this. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. In my mind, the system is NOT ok as is. It's too easy to scam people. The safeguards mentioned on this thread would not cause inconvenience.

I have yet to hear a decent argument against some sort of safeguard...

Argument 1: "It's not necessary." Obviously, something IS necessary, or there wouldn't be people getting scammed, now would there?

Argument 2: "It would cause incovenience." Come on. Adding another button or another screen would not cause that much inconvenience. As I've said, it will help stop scammers, and will probably lead to quicker trades.

Argument 3: "Better things for Anet to do". Possibly. But this is an easy fix, not like reprogramming AI, or fixing a "balance" issue. I'd rather they make a quick fix to the trading system to help poor "noobs" (I hate that word) from being exploited. I think in the end that will make more people happy for the effort spent.

(Not to say I DON'T want Anet to work on other issues, I recognize that those issues are more complex and will take longer to solve than adding a fail-safe to the trading system!)

darkdragon99 · Dec 08, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

either they put in something to help stop scamming or they start banned the scammers accounts. like they should have been from the god dam start and sence demon you seem to be a scammer wich one would you want.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

either they put in something to help stop scamming or they start banned the scammers accounts. like they should have been from the god dam start and sence demon you seem to be a scammer wich one would you want.

HAHAHA - because I believe that people should take reasonable precautions to protect themselves from being scammed, that makes me a scammer? Your logic is astounding.

And BTW - watch your language, tone, and accusations.